Wow, this is a tough one, isn't it?
I've previously covered the history of the region in my post Israel and Palestine. I'll recap briefly.
Historically, Arabs and Jews were basically the same people. For the 500 years preceding WW1 the region was controlled by the Ottoman Turks, disliked by Arabs and Jews equally. Post WW1 the region came under British rule. During that time, Jews started immigrating in and bringing a lot of foreign capital with them. They lived more or less in harmony with the Arabs. The Jews were terrific for the region and brought it out of poverty, and the Arabs were happy with that.
Both Arabs and Jews were vying for a State. There was a powerful Jewish lobby in Britain and the US. However, the Arabs had the oil. So the British dithered. After the Holocaust, the UN voted to allow the Jews to setup a State. The British were happy to get out as the Jews were literally terrorizing them. The Arabs never accepted the decision and immediately went to war with the nascent Israeli State. The Arabs lost badly (against all odds). The Arabs tried again and again and failed each time.
Many Arabs were displaced from Israel during this time and took refuge in Egypt-controlled Gaza. However, Egypt never allowed those refugees in Gaza into Egypt proper, preferring to keep them penned up there to make trouble for Israel, which they certainly did.
In 2006, Hamas won the elections in Gaza by a plurality of seats and then went to war against the secular Palestinian Authority party (Fatah). Hamas is an Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorist Organization closely aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood. They are anti-semitic, deny the Holocaust, and believe the Jews are a conspiracy to take over the world. On August 10, 2012, Ahmad Bahr, Deputy Speaker of the Hamas Parliament, stated in a sermon that aired on Al-Aqsa TV:
If the enemy sets foot on a single square inch of Islamic land, Jihad becomes an individual duty, incumbent on every Muslim, male or female. A woman may set out [on Jihad] without her husband's permission, and a servant without his master's permission. Why? In order to annihilate those Jews. ... O Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. O Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. O Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.
Hamas has been preparing for war and firing missiles into Israel for years. A couple of weeks ago they perpetrated their worst atrocity to date, drugging up a bunch of terrorists and sending them into Israel to assassinate civilians, including old men, women, and children.
Why? God only knows. Can an entire State be mentally insane? Maybe. Has the population been brainwashed since birth to believe it is Godly to assassinate Jews? Yup.
Are there puppet masters behind this? For sure. Iran, Russia, China, trying to promote a broader conflict in the Middle East to draw the US into a second war besides Ukraine? Looks like that to me.
It's also about Sunni versus Shia Muslims. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States were beginning to make peace with Israel. That would have left Iran isolated. So they made this obscenity happen in order to stall or terminate that peace process.
So how was Israel to respond?
They chose to go on the offensive and eliminate the offensive capacity of Hamas.
Trouble is, Hamas uses civilians as human shields. They setup military shop in hospitals, schools, refugee camps. Hiding behind (mostly willing) civilians to launch offensive operations.
The Israeli response has been to tell the citizens to distance themselves from Hamas and then take Hamas out. There's a vast network of tunnels left over filled with weapons and fighters, and Israel has now moved on to clearing those out.
In the process, a lot of civilians are getting injured. It's worth pointing out that in war, this happens. Fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo, and the nuclear bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima come immediately to mind. That sucks.
I think Israel has little choice. I support their actions while hoping they can minimize civilian casualties. I urge the Arab states and Muslim religious leaders to condemn the actions of Hamas, acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and welcome those Gazans who are willing to renounce violence into their countries. To my knowledge no Islamic religious leader has yet condemned the attacks.
"Why? God only knows. Can an entire State be mentally insane? Maybe. Has the population been brainwashed since birth to believe it is Godly to assassinate Jews? Yup."
ReplyDeleteI'd suggest you spend some time studying both fundamentalist Islam and fundamentalist Christianity w/r/t their beliefs about encouraging war in Jerusalem in order to bring about the "End Times." Once you understand that, you will understan why Hamas is willing to provoke a war that almost certainly will lead to its own annihilation.
I knew about fundamentalist Christian view. But I don't ascribe the extreme hawkishness in parts of the US right to that. Maybe a convenient political support base, but guys like Lindsey Graham are in it for the arms dealer kickbacks, I'm sure.
DeleteDoes Hamas have similar views about "end times"? I thought the fundamentalist Islam view was to just convert the whole world or kill them?
If he is a fundamentalist, he is no longer a Christian.!
DeleteThe fundamentalist Islamic belief regarding "end times" is basically an off-shoot of the fundamentalist Christian beliefs. They both believe that a battle in the Holy Land, in which believers will be on the ropes, will be the precipitating event that leads to the second coming of Jesus. Yes, Islamists believe it is Jesus who will come back. My understanding is that the Islamists also believe this will happen only after the Islamic believers are all but defeated in the final great battle. So, I think we in the West assume that Hamas has poked the bear and is getting more than it bargained for, but forcing a final confrontation in which Hamas and the "believers" are all but wiped out probably is exactly what they are trying to bring about.
DeleteI began my political life as a Republican, but I was always in more of the libertarian, pro-business branch of the party. I was never comfortable with Reagan sucking up to the religious right, but I was willing to live with it because I figured he really didn't mean it. Later, the religious right became a much more powerful force in the party, and I couldn't accept them having the sway they have over social policy. So, it was the religious crazies who lead to me switching parties. And, look where it's taken us to this religious nut of a Speaker, third in line for the presidency.
Interesting. Thank you.
DeleteSwitching your affiliation to Biden Democrats did not work out so well, I'm guessing.
I switched way before the Biden administration. It's worked out better than joining the MAGA cult would have. I prefer both my religion and politics cult-free.
DeleteThe leftist death cult is what really needs to be avoided.
DeleteI fully agree that cults on either side need to be avoided and disempowered. But, I think my former party hit an all-time low when it's Speaker choices were comprised of: (a) election denier with a verified history of attending white supremacist events; (b) election denier credibly accused, on the record, of turning a blind eye to homosexual assaults on young men under his supervision; or (c) election denier, homosexual hating religious nut. Because the normies weren't sufficiently cultish.
DeleteI'm sorry your news sources have failed you so thoroughly.
DeleteThere is really selfishness here. People forget to be humble. This is the core of all wars.
DeleteI don't see how any amount of humility on the part of Israel will get Hamas to stop killing Jews.
DeleteDid I talk about the Jews? What rights were violated in Gaza?
DeleteSometimes evil needs to be met with strength, not humility.
Deletemakes you think
Deletehttps://twitter.com/i/status/1720474033353846847
Not really. No kid his age speaks like that and is then video'd, subtitled, and released by some Yemenite account. You should be more discerning so you're not influenced by clear propaganda.
DeleteDefinitely a tough one. I know many Jews with ties to Israel (and mixed feelings about its government) but I don’t know anyone from Gaza.
ReplyDeleteHamas are criminals, war criminals, terrorists - whatever you want to call them.
But I’m very concerned that Israel hoping to minimize civilian casualties won’t work well. I get the analogy to Dresden etc. And even if we accept that many will die, we certainly don’t want the war to spread.
The support we’ve seen for Palestine is not entirely irrational.
I wish somebody in the international community could/would step up with a plan to stop the war and move toward peace. We need a hero like never before.
Rosco
Like Trump/Kushner and the Arab accords?
DeleteStudy those accords carefully and you'll discover it was all about Trump looking good and getting the Arab states to play lip service to Israel
DeleteIt didn't address at all the Palestine issue, the occupied west bank and a 2 state solution
That was deliberate. Listen to Kushner on it. Palestine was a quagmire making peace impossible. He decided to make peace going around the issue, and once peace was made, the Palestinians would have to deal.
DeleteThat you have convinced yourself that the most significant and successful peace initiative in the region never happened because "Orange Man Bad" is a particularly delusional variant of Trump Derangement Syndrome. I'm sorry your news sources have failed you so badly.
I didn’t follow Kushner enough to really judge, but guess he was out of his league. I don’t know who could do it - I’m not assuming it would be an American.
DeleteMost of us are well enough informed that the Arab world is pretty fractured, so it doesn’t seem likely to find a hero within it.
Rosco
There was a great recent long form interview with Kushner on the Lex Fridman podcast HERE. I think you'd come away very impressed as have most who listened to it.
DeleteI'm impressed Julie! I listened to it and you're 100% right, Kushner is a smart dude and did what nobody else could, would've been a total different picture if he would've had another 4 years to work with.
DeleteAnd to Rosco's point, i don't think the arabs paid lip service to Israel, i think it's the opposite, the secular arabs have more in common with Israel and they just need to pay lip service to the "Palestinian cause".
Have to say though, most in the kink community are on the far left i think, it's refreshing to see you have a head on your shoulders, not that i doubted it having followed your blog for years:)
Yes!
Delete"He decided to make peace going around the issue, and once peace was made, the Palestinians would have to deal"
DeleteTo most of the world, that statement makes no sense at all as you can't actually go round the issue of the illegal occupation of the west bank by Israel
What it did was weaken the Palestinans hand to negotiate and strengthen Hamas hand
"significant and successful peace initiative in the region" according to Trump and his supporters perhaps, but to the rest of the world not
Only to you I suspect.
DeleteThis is one of those conflicts that I personally just don't see an end to, as it involves the two most logic resistant concepts known to man: Religion and politics.
ReplyDeleteThis conflict will still be raging when I die IMO...Unless something really drastic happens, and either eradicates one of the parties, or burn down the entire region *sigh*
And no matter who one might favour, the simple fact is that there are no "good guys" in this conflict. Because while no one should begrudge Israel their desire to 1) have a country, and 2) not have to risk their civilians getting blown up at random on a regular basis, because some of their neighbors want to exterminate them, and burn their State to the ground, it's still difficult to support the killing of civilians in retaliatory strikes, and effectively "locking 2 million people up" within the Gaza strip. But it's absolutely no easier to support Hamas's random killing of civilians, regardless of the method employed to do so.
There's no question that Israel has been forced to respond to the attack perpetrated by Hamas here, but personally I'd wish that they'd elected to respond lightly, and then tried to use the situation to their political benefit. Because the governments of several of their Muslim neighbors have no particular love for the Palestinians, and while they object to Israel's actions in Gaza at this point, several of them would have preferred that the Hamas attacks hadn't happened at all. So if Israel had shown restraint (which I willingly admit would have been very difficult to sell politically within Israel), they might have been able to use Hamas's actions to push for either better relations with the "government" running the West Bank, and/or additional "normalization" agreements with further countries in the Middle East region.
The normalization agreements that have been signed, or are in the works, in the region, might also likely have played a part in prompting Hamas to launch it's attacks now. Because those agreements are not in their interests, as it will effectively erode support for their cause, in the region.
(A mild response would also have reduced the "spill-over" problems this has effectively caused for the West's diplomatic efforts to get more countries around the world to condemn Russia's attacks on the civilian population and infrastructure in the Ukraine *sigh*)
I get the impulse, but attempting to draw a moral equivalence between the two sides is foolish. Israel is a modern state with tolerant views. Hamas is a terrorist state whose stated goal is the eradication of Israel and the genocide of all Jews. Not the same.
DeleteIsrael cannot allow millions of Israeli-hating terrorists to run free in their country. Why are the Arab states not opening their doors to these people if it is so horrible to "bottle them up"?
Russians have done a decent job of limiting their retaliatory strikes to military targets and infrastructure, despite the propaganda,
Don't get me wrong Julie. I'm not saying that Israel and Palestine/Hamas are the same. I'm saying that both parties (Israel and Hamas) are engaging in acts that are hard to defend. But I agree that Israel can't just let Hamas murder Israeli civilians, without taking some form of action. And of course it's...mildly put, problematic to allow people from an area, whose leadership has declared that they want Israel removed from the map, have free access to Israel. There's no discussing that.
DeleteAt the same time, I can also follow some of the thoughts and feelings that might be happening on the Palestinian side. How'd you feel, if you truly felt like your country had been invaded, your land stolen from you, your countrymen displaced from ancestral soil etc.? I'm betting that you'd be tempted to want to lash out at the "invaders" too. I suspect that I certainly might be. But again, those feelings don't justify the indiscriminate murder of civilians.
As for why other Arab states aren't opening their doors for the Palestinians, that answer becomes complex. But first of all, few countries are interested in receiving millions of refugees. Few countries are interested in importing Islamic fundamentalist terrorists, or just individuals that will continue to plan and launch attacks against Israel from the soil of other nations, and neither are the other Arab countries particular interested in importing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict into their countries. Then you have politics and probably a variety of other reasons, that all play a part. And the Palestinians aren't interested in becoming refugees in i.e. Egypt either. Because if they first become displaced from Gaza or the West Bank, then the odds of them returning becomes really bad, based on historical evidence. You have refugee camps with Palestinians that have stood since 1948, and which have doubled in the number of inhabitants since then. And these people have no prospect of ever getting to return to the area they came from, because that land is a part of Israel today, and is inhabited by thousands upon thousands of Israeli nationals, that have settled in the areas Israel has ended up occupying, since the State's creation in 1948.
The Russians have undoubtedly mainly targeted military targets, but there is zero denying that they have deliberately targeted civilian infrastructure, there's no denying the destruction of various cities, and there is no denying that Russian soldiers have killed an unclear number of Ukranian civilians. One such story blew up on Russian social media recently, where two Russian soldiers (who have now been arrested, and have confessed to the crime) broke into the home of a Ukranian family, and shot two adults and their 9 children and grandchildren, who had been celebrating the grandmother's birthday the same evening. The two soldiers had only wanted to kill two of the people, but had ended up killing the rest too, in order to eliminate witnesses. Most of the killed were shot in the head while in their bed, some were hugging each other when they were killed. And this happened in a region that has been occupied by Russia for months, and the family that was killed, were originally supporting the Russian occupation. For once Russia isn't denying that the incidence is real. Anyway, not looking to sidetrack into the Ukraine/Russia conflict. It's not directly related to the Israel/Palestinian conflict your post is talking about.
All war has atrocities. What country do you consider the benchmark for the least number of atrocities during war? Are the Russians worse than the Ukrainians? The US during WW2 or even the Middle East more recently? I don't think so. One cannot look at incidents in isolation without any form of benchmark.
DeleteHad the Arabs in Palestine accepted the UN resolution and worked in a civilized way within its confines (that actually allocated a tremendous amount of the land to Arab rule), then I would agree that the Arab Palestinians would have a just cause.
However, they immediately declared genocidal war on Israel/ the Jews, and it was only by some kind of miracle that any Israelis survived that onslaught.
We are not talking about atrocities. We are talking about deliberate attacks at civilians and civilian infrastructure. Both things were attempted outlawed following WW2, as I recall. So today it's considered as war crimes.
DeleteI doubt that neither of us have in-depth knowledge enough about what's happening in the Ukraine, in order to really say who's worse, between the Ukranians and the Russians. But we can objectively say that Russia were the ones to move army units onto Ukrainian soil. The war is being fought on Ukrainian soil (except for a few attacks on specific targets within Russia), and Ukranian cities have been destroyed, infrastructure attacked/destroyed, and civilians deliberately targeted.
But yea. It would have been nice if everyone had originally just accepted the creation of Israel as a nation state, and then left it at that. Unfortunately that didn't happen :-(
You're describing Hams's actions clearly. When Hamas is basing out of civilian infrastructure, it's less clear.
DeleteYes, Russia moved onto Ukrainian soil. Just like the US did onto Iraqi soil (under utterly false pretenses), Cuban soil, Afghani soil, ... The double standard is strong.
I agree that it's problematic that Hamas is using civilian infrastructure and civilians themselves as "shields" from significant attacks from Israel. I don't condone it, and I'm not sure if that too is actually in violation of the supposed "rules of war" or not. But it is in keeping with the typical modus operandi of a terror organization (as well as other forms of armed groups that fight against armies they can't take on in open battle). Again, this is why I say that I find problems with actions on both sides in the conflict.
DeleteLet's stick with the Israel/Palestine issue. The Ukrainian conflict isn't directly related, and while I agree with you that the US too has launched questionable wars against several middle eastern countries in the later decades too, they are not related to this either. One significant difference between those and the Russian/Ukraine conflict, however, is that the US weren't waging wars of conquest in those situations, and weren't looking to take over land, and add it to the US map. (And no, leaving a more US/West friendly government in power after the conflict is not quite the same.) But again, let's stay with the Israel/Palestine topic.
While there are no doubt isolated incidents of things I might condemn from Israel, I cannot find fault with their overall action. Hamas was hiding behind Palestinian civilians and launching continuous attacks against Israeli civilians and was showing no signs of stopping, just escalating. Israel was morally required to do something to put a stop to it.
DeleteI agree, it's even more mystifying why the US would wage these foreign wars of aggression if there was nothing in it for them. Unfortunately, there was lots of money in it for arms dealers and dirty politicians. I find that more morally reprehensible, not less.
USA, UK and others have an interest is obstructing the Chinese mega economic project (the route and belt), and Gaza happens to be located in an ideal position just next to a core hub of this route (Sinai in Egypt), so Israel has been pushing Palestinians to go to Egypt and USA offered to build them houses in the exact location where Egypt was putting a strategic port for participating in the Chinese project.
DeleteThe Palestinians are put under complete seige (no electricity, fuel, food or water) and under continuous bombing (over 16000 tons of explosives up till now) so that they have no choice but to run to the Egyptian Sinai to save their lives.
It is economic interest behind USA and UK participation.
That's a really interesting point of view. I don't think it's the root cause, necessarily, but seems like it could be a contributor.
DeleteWhy not? Keep in mind that using military force for economic reasons is not a new thing, a good example is the European countries' colonies in Africa during the 19th and 20th centuries.
DeleteCorrect as usual, Julie.
ReplyDelete🙏
DeleteThis was the post I just knew you would put up, guessing the content point by point, but really hoped you would not . Friday's speech(15.00 Beirut time) by Hassan Nasraallah, the spiritual leader of Hezbollah, should bring some clarity to the issues and outline the scale of the conflict(coverage by Al Jazeera and www.lorientlejour.com )
ReplyDeleteAnd yet you refute none of the points. That signals to me you are ideologically captured, not able to make coherent points of refutation on your own. I'll listen with some interest what Iran has to say via their Hezbollah terrorist puppets.
DeleteNothing, as it turns out, except support for the atrocities of Oct 7 and impotent saber-rattling. What a joke these ignorant people are.
DeleteIsrael’s problem can’t be solved right now, it can only be managed. They should take action consistent with destroying Hamas’ ability to murder Israelis to the extent possible without becoming embroiled in a costly, lengthy conflict. No nation building. No control over Gaza. Israel should maintain their right to cross into Gaza whenever the current version of Palestinian lunatics decide it’s in their interest to murder Israelis.
ReplyDeleteGood suggestions.
DeleteThe Arab states. including Iran, have treated the Palestinian Arabs as pariahs. None wanted to allow those people into their country. Hamas is a terrorist organization hiding behind a very skewed view of the Koran. We are in agreement that Israel has no choice but to wipe out the Hamas threat in Gaza.
ReplyDeleteThis war is also going to help weaken Iran. It's been under economic pressure for years and expending resources to support Hamas can only further hurt their economy.
Hamas is happy to sacrifice women and children to get a propaganda advantage. I'm unsympathetic about the casualties in Gaza. Of course, I hate seeing people kill one another. But I am much more distressed by the risks posed by Hamas to all of us.
☑️
DeleteWhile I'm bothered with every civilian death, even in Gaza, people forget how many Muslims are killed by Muslims every year and there's no protests, no UN resolutions, no ceasefires, something is seriously wrong with people's minds.
DeleteTrue. Not to mention the number of black Americans killed by other black Americans in the inner cities every year.
DeleteThe purpose in war is to kill people and break things. It hopefully is for a reason that is acceptable, but to whom? There's the rub. Anyone who believes differently has been watching too much Disney, well, old Disney.
ReplyDeleteIsrael was attacked. It has defended itself and, more importantly, had to try and rescue the hostages taken by Hamas. Comments on here have already done a good job of explaining the immoral actions of taking women and children hostage, etc.
We are sliding ever closer to WWIII and each day I wonder if I will see the dreaded news bulletin on the internet or elsewhere that it has begun. However, I refuse to blame Israel for its actions. Palestine may seem like an ancient homeland to those not versed in history, but it was named by a Roman Emperor! It didn't just burst forth from Arabic traditions as the country, Palestine.
That's my dollar's worth. It used to be two cents but with inflation...
Jon
Good points
DeleteI believe the Palestinians have a right to resist. The attack was provoked by israel during years of unprovoked bombing of civilians in Gaza, unprovoked bombing of civilians in the West Bank (see Jenin this year), killing between 1and 2 civilian Palestinians daily in the West Bank this year only before the attack, imprisoning 200 Palestinian children this year only, burning Palestinian children in the West Bank, torturing Palestinian prisoners and raping Palestinians. No one agrees with the attack, but it is easy to sit in your safe home and rooting for the people who look like you, while dehumanizing occupied Palestinians. You should read up on why israel never wanted to give Palestinians peace. Defending genocide is not an option. Continued occupation is not an option.
ReplyDelete"Unprovoked"? You do know they've sent 1000s of rockets into civilian areas each year?
DeleteI'm sorry, but it's hard to run from the stated goals of Hamas, which are pure genocidal evil, as demonstrated by their actions. And that is the duly elected government of Gaza.
As usual the OP commenter doesn't realize Palestine never truly existed anytime in history. Also they don't realize that Hamas hides their military operations behind innocent civilians. Also they refuse to acknowledge that Israel has offered a 2 state solution for years with the surrender of Hamas but the civilians and the state refused it.
DeleteYes, it's strange they don't acknowledge basic facts.
DeletePalestine existed and Jews from all European countries like all foreigners had to get visas to enter Palastine before 1948.
DeleteBefore 1948 Palestine was ruled by Great Britain under the so-called "British Mandate for Palestine". Before that it was controlled (very corruptly) by the Ottoman Turks. The name "Palestine" is not Arabic. It's based on what the ancient Greeks called the region. And yes, the British were very concerned by the flood of Jewish immigrants which upset the Arab states from whom they were getting oil. I encourage you to read and understand the history article I wrote, referenced at the top of this blog, so you can join the rest of us in an adult conversation.
DeleteGet your ass back to your desk and write spanking stories.
ReplyDeleteWe have more than enough journalists and political bloggers, but we are short on spanko bloggers.
Apparently short of common sense, though.
DeleteAttacking war criminal Netanyahu and Israel, is not the same as attacking Jews. Ignorant minded people can’t separate the 2. Fuck Netanyahu and Israel. They’re getting what they deserve.
ReplyDeleteShould innocent people be left alone? Of course. But this is a war against Netanyahu and his decisions and atrocities he’s committed. The fact they’re Jews is a distraction for ignorant people.
Hamas's stated objective is to "destroy the Jews". What part of their literally stated objective do you not understand?
DeleteIsrael is officially a Jewish state, for Arabs the word Jews means Israel (the entity that kicked them out of rheir homes and occupied their land. Jewish Canadians, German, French are referred to as Canadian, German, French (almost all Arabs will never ask about a Canadian's religion).
DeleteThere are plenty of Arab Israelis, are they "Jews" too? Even if you're right (which you aren't), it's not much better!
DeleteThese are the Palestinians who survived oppression by the occupation forces and settlers to leave their homes by force in 1948 (less than 20% of the Palestinian citizens), as the state of Palestine was occupied by the Jews who have been flowing from allover Europe since Belford declaration, so naturally their Palestinian IDs, passports, driving licences were no longer valid and they had to get those of the new country.
DeleteOn another note, applying your logic that Jews took the country out of poverty, then rich Arabs could come to Canada and after some time decide to establish an Arab state in Canada and call it an Arabic name instead of Canada.
Yup. We did that with the Natives. There were very few of them hogging vast amounts of land and using it very unproductively. Very analogous to Palestine. Those days are over now, though.
DeleteYou made your position very clear, from the river to the sea you want another dictatorship or terrorist state! No point in arguing with you. And no this has nothing to do with Netanyahu, you're either ignorant, or wilfully misleading.
DeleteTaymor you do realize Israel is populated by quite a few different religions and the Jewish population is actually in danger of being the minority population soon. Plus Hamas terrorists are the ones who hide the military operations behind the innocent civilians you so dearly care about. Blame Hamas and the Gaza leaders for allowing innocent civilians to die as they refuse to separate their military sites from civilian residences, hospitals, schools and refugee camps.
Delete100%
DeleteI think Taymor has been blocked by Julie.
DeleteBut I am starting to believe him a bit after the bombing of a civilian car in Lebanon killing three young girls and their grandmother.
I doubt Hamas was in this passenger car.
There is no means to block an individual automatically, and they try to get around it anyways by posting anonymously (Taymor has been going nuts with that!). I'm just blocking the ranty comments that are repetitive and clearly add nothing. I let one or two of his go that squeak barely above that bar.
DeleteI always like to hear the other side's take on an incident like that. There is zero reason for Israel to deliberately bomb an innocuous civilian car, and many reasons for them not to do it (you are displaying one of them - turning sentiment against them). Did they have bad intelligence about the car? Was it an accident? Was it a crazed rogue IDF soldier who lost it? In war, shit happens. Ask Obama who took out out hundreds of innocent civilians while targeting ISIS leadership, or Biden who recently killed a bunch of innocent American children in Afghanistan with a bomb based on bad intel.
I still make the distinction of who is deliberately targeting women and children and old men for NO military reason (Hamas) versus collateral damage (Israel).
Don't forget that unlike Palestinian women who never participate in wars (have you ever seen a lady Palestinian soldier?), Israeli women are army soldiers and officers.
DeleteBesides, I have seen an interview with the released Israeli lady and she said that Hamas treated her well, which raises doubts whether Hamas attacked civilian ladies in the first place.
Nope. No chance of that. Definitely many old and young Israeli ladies were slaughtered by Hamas on Oct 7.
DeleteThose ladies you refer to, Hamas released them and kept their husbands. Now, if your husband is still in Hamas hands, what do you think they are going to say? Exactly what they're told.
You're very naive.
I am taken aback by the level of hatred shown to Jews here and in Europe. I had no idea such hatred lived so close to the surface.
ReplyDeleteI think this is a new thing, not particularly anti-Semitic in origin. It's the "intersectional" idea of identifying "oppressors" and "oppressed". Once the Marxist mob has, however illogically, identified an "oppressor", the brainwashing takes hold hard and justifies any manner of atrocity, as we have seen throughout history where Marxists are concerned.
DeleteYou need to make some research on that, waves of kicking Jews out of European countries has been there since the middle ages, England did it several times in the middle ages, so did Spain, Germany and other European countries.
DeleteTo make it easier for you rather than doing a history research on how many times Jews were kicked out of European countries, just check the famous play by William Shakespeare called "The merchant of Venice"
DeleteIn the past, yes. Is there still anti-Jewish sentiment today, especially from the Arab world, yes. This current (this month's) broad reaction reaction is more intersectional than anti-Semitic IMO.
DeleteBy the way Julie, Arabs are Semitic as well.
DeleteHence why I said anti-Jewish above. But most have now redefined the term accordingly.
DeleteMy theory is that Europe got rid of the extremist Jews by sending them to the middle East and kept only the moderate ones.
DeleteBy the way Israel is not Utopia, they are racists even within their own society where the Ashkenaz are looking down to the Sephardim.
Fair to say every society has some bad people in it.
DeleteWon’t you stop using double standards? You’re finding it very hard to condemn killing 10000 innocent people half of them are children saying Israel has the right to defend itself? Palestinians don’t have the right to defend themselves too? Israel has been killing Palestinians daily way before Hamas was founded, how about the west bank? Already hundreds of innocent civilians were killed by the IDF and other terrorist Jewish militias where Hamas doesn’t even exist. After 1948 Israel has refused the solution of PLO which was a secular democratic state for everyone for years, later on they refused the other solution, two states on 1967 borders and they’re still encouraging illegal settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. The far right racist terrorist government found its own solution and Netanyahu thought it was fine to rule five million people in an Apartheid regime. The crisis on the 7th of October could only be read as a Palestinian refusal to that solution, any nation would refuse that. There would never be a solution without giving people their basic rights, otherwise they’re gonna keep on resisting. Israel openly denied them their rights because giving them equal rights would mean the disappearance of Israel as a Jewish majority state. The solution must come from where the problem was born, from inside Israel and obviously all Palestinian refugees still have the right to return home as was declared by the security council and this right they shall not ever lose it. Arab states have nothing to do with this, Palestinians want to go back to their land not to live in neighbouring countries just to comply with a silly religious claim from 3000bc without any historic evidence.
ReplyDeleteNo double standards. Just standards. It is not morally equivalent to deliberately target helpless citizens, versus collateral damage when targeting Hamas who deliberately uses them as human shields while launching further attacks.
DeletePalestinians have consistently rejected any two state solution: "from the river to the sea".
In what way is a nation where 20% of the population is Arab with full equal rights "apartheid"? Yes, they are "apartheid" when it comes to terrorists, and good thing.
It was not a "crisis" on October 7th, you moral coward. It was flat out genocidal murder.
The claim is not from 3000BC. The claim is from the UN in 1948 and from the earlier Balfour Declaration when the British controlled the region.
You say it was a fine solution to have Jews live in a secular Arab state? How many Jews live comfortably in Arab states now? Why is it not fine for Palestinians to live in a secular Israeli state, which is what Israel is with 20% Arab population?.
Israel is based on forceful land occupation l, they did a military occupation of part of Egypt (Sinai) in the past.
DeleteThey kept it for years till Egypt launched a liberation war despite having a much less modern arsenal and managed to break Israel's famous defence line, and again at that time USA interfered in favour of Israel, then after years on negotiations the land was returned back to Egyptian.
Israel responds to all attacks and provocations, and usually wind up ahead. You think the Arabs would have figured that out by now.
DeleteISRAEL slogan / goal is from river to sea, this area includes Palestine, Lebanon, part of Egypt and part of Syria. So please don't tell me they respond to provocations.
DeleteImagine that the USA' slogan / goal written on the Congress walls is from Great Slave lake to the Gulf of California. How would you feel as a Canadian?
Sorry I mistyped, Israel slogan / goal to build Great Israel from Nile river to Euphrates river, check the map to see how many countries Israel is targeting to occupy
Delete"From the river to the sea" is the Palestinian slogan generally understood to be the elimination of Israel as a state and the death of all Jews in the region.
DeleteNever heard your weird conspiracy theory about a greater Israel, nor have they ever started a war of aggression as have the Arabs multiple times.
Well, check security Council resolution 242.
DeleteAlso search for "Greater Israel" or the phrase "from Nile to Euphrates".
You and Osama bin Laden.
DeleteI don't get your point, what is the relation between security Council resolution 242 and Osama bin Laden the terrorist who killed also many Arab countries soldiers and citizens.
DeleteDon't forget that he was initially recruited and supported by USA and given weapons and military training to fight Russia in Afghanistan for many years.
Osama also had conspiracy theories about "Greater Israel".
DeleteI well know about the US's involvement with him.
Does killing 10000 civilians sound to you like a collateral damage?
ReplyDeleteAnd yes the Palestinian Authority accepted the two states solution before Oslo, and was accepted internationally and Israel had only to withdraw from West Bank and East Jerusalem, and what have they done instead? Planting racist settlers, two millions of illegal settlers and building an Apartheid wall, what would we expect from them to do in return? Of course they will not accept that.
It’s an Apartheid state by all means and it’s not me who’s saying this, all human rights organisation, there’s a clear discrimination, they’re ruling people in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and yet denying them of all rights, if they want to end the Apartheid situation they must withdraw from occupied territories, they’re even violating international law.
20% of Israelis are Arab second class citizens, who can go to jail just for raising their Palestinian flags, they CANNOT marry from their cousins in the West Bank or Gaza too, there are racial laws tailored against them.
On the 7th of October more than 300 Israeli soldiers were killed too, wouldn’t you consider the other innocent victims who were sadly killed as a collateral damage to the attack of Hamas armed resistance on their own Palestinian land?
It’s even worse if you start from 1948 when 80% of the population were Palestinians and the Balfour declaration is not legitimate in any way. He was an antisemite moron that wanted to get rid of Jews giving them a land that is not his.
Jews lived peacefully with all other Christians and Muslim neighbours in the area for thousands of years and please remember how Europe was antisemite while they lived peacefully in the Middle East. Antisemitism didn’t exist in the Middle East, there are still Jews living in many Middle Eastern countries I don’t get the problem.
If Israele is really a democratic country as it falsely declares, why don’t they give citizenship to people of the West Bank and East Jerusalem?
I don't believe the propaganda numbers from Hamas. Do you?
DeleteIsrael withdrew entirely from Gaza and allowed them to self-govern. The result was a full blown terrorist state with a brainwashed Jihadist population.
They’re not propaganda numbers and they’re not issued by Hamas, there are names and details and every victim is documented by independent organisations and also by the Palestinian ministry of health.
DeleteIt’s a genocide on innocent people who have been previously ethnically cleansed twice before. This is the real cause of hate and terrorism.
Do you find it difficult to condemn 80 years of occupation, violation of international laws, illegal settlements and hundreds of massacre done by racist apartheid Israel?
They still have not correctly tallied the deaths in Hawaii. If you think anybody can count that well that fast, you're delusional.
DeleteI have no trouble taking individual incidents and making a judgment about them, even if it goes against Israel (which some do). Overall, however, the ones whose stated goal is genocide is Hamas.
Hope you live in similar situation like Gaza people and have your entire neighbourhood destroyed via air strikes and some lady writes about you same you are doing about Gaza people.
DeletePalestinians are not Hamas, Hamas is a militant group whom are viewed by some Arabs as cooperative with Israel as whenever the Arab countries start mega development projects or the Palestinian authority in the west bank tries to sign an agreement to extract natural gas from Gaza's shore, they pick a fight with Israel while they know it is disproportionate.
DeleteThis time they did that to destabilise the region blocking KSA, UAE and Egypt mega projects, disrupt the Palestinian
authority deal for extraction of natural gas and most importantly give Israel an opportunity to kick Gaza people into Egypt, so that Israel gets Gaza's natural gas and disrupt Egypt's mega international trade hub project by pushing to build houses to host Gaza people in the place where the project is being built which is a crucial location in Egypt for its participation in the Chinese Route and belt project. Then in a few years, Hamas will pick a fight with Israel from its new place in Egypt and hive Israel an excuse to defend itself by taking part of Egypt and so on.
Do you think all those American war ships are there for Gaza? The British ships anti submarine war ships that joined are also to fight Hamas? Does Hamas have submarines? It is all to push Gaza people to Egypt for the reasons elaborated above. This part of the global economic and political war.
https://youtu.be/RlPegRjl1XU?si=DdDTtHf_KyfidRtD
DeleteApartheid what?? If there's apartheid it's in the arab countries, west bank and gaza! Instead of babbling what the UN says why not make your own research!
The same UN that Iran, China and Russia are part of.
Palestinians elected Hamas, and Hamas are their current representatives. I'm sure many Palestinians hate Hamas, but if they complain, they are shot.
DeleteAnd yes, if I elected a genocidal government whose sole aim was terrorism against my neighbour, and then those terrorists used me as a human shield, it would suck, but I'd agree with the need to take them out.
Anonymous- good clip. It's an Arab Israeli man trying to convince some woke girl that she doesn't know what she's talking about re supposed Israeli "apartheid".
DeleteWas there an election in Gaza during the past 80 years?
DeleteWere the Palestinians left in peace ever since the new Israeli government took the authority or the radical Minister of national security repeatedly broke into El Aqsa mosque and encouraged his radical party supporters to attack Palestinians and burn their properties in the West bank?
Has Imitar Ben Gvir been sending security forces during the last year to break into Palestinian houses and pullout their olive trees (key means of earning their living that has been there for hundreds of years)?
Applying your logic, it is fair Israeli people bear the consequences of electing the radical extremist Ben Gvir.
Israel pulled all its settlers out of Gaza in 2005 and withdrew all its troops allowing Gaza to self-govern. Hamas was elected in 2006.This created a civil war with Fatah which Hamas won. Basic stuff, Taymor.
DeleteCheck this video
ReplyDeletehttps://www.facebook.com/reel/233216392898904?s=yWDuG2&fs=e&mibextid=Nif5oz
Seen it before. It's a pretty distorted view of the history of the region in my opinion and based on what many other commentators have said.
DeletePeople make up their own history on this topic based on their biased views, i read and listen to both sides and can usually guess beforehand what facts they will choose to make their case, it's called "confirmation bias".
Deletehttps://www.al-rassooli.com/tiny-israel.html
https://www.youtube.com/live/gYt20K39JJ8?si=vnqpjt_6bKbfZJFE
At least research some facts that doesn't come from an Egypt comedian:)
It summarizes the consequences of Israel not abiding by Security Council resolution 242.
DeleteIt was the consequences of the six day war, yet another war of aggression by the Arabs. Israel would take their time handing back territory that was used as a staging point for aggresion.
DeleteThank you for your input Taymor. I've blocked you from further comments on this topic as you're being repetitive and trying to dominate the discussion. Let's leave space for others.
DeleteTotally correct!
ReplyDelete🙏
DeleteIf the Arabs were to lay down their weapons, there would be Peace.
ReplyDeleteIf Israel were to lay down their weapons, there would be no Jews.
It is painfully obvious who is pursuing Genocide.
That is no doubt true.
DeleteThe seemingly futile music festival attack was intended to prevent the expansion of the Abraham Accord to Saudi Arabia.
ReplyDeleteAgreed
Delete