Thursday, March 3

Russian Invasion of Ukraine

A few readers have reached out by email and said they would appreciate my take on the Ukraine-Russia situation. Cool. So here's a spanking blogger's take for what it's worth.

I did a previous blog post on Jan. 24 about Ukraine before Russia invaded. It provides some good historical perspective: Russia and the Ukraine. I'll recap briefly.

Originally Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire. The first part, East of the Dnieper River, was taken in the 17th century. The part West of the Dnieper in the 18th century during the reign of Catherine the Great.

After the Bolshevik Revolution in the early 20th century, an independently administered territory within the Soviet Union called Ukraine was created by Lenin and added onto by Stalin and Khrushchev. Brezhnev was born in Ukraine. Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine were the founding member-states of the Soviet Union. It was all controlled centrally from Moscow, but men from all three participated in leadership positions.

When the Soviet Union was dissolved in the early 1990s, former Soviet-controlled states became first-class countries, and Germany was reunified. Being the foundation of the old Soviet Union, Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine were still all tightly aligned with one another.

Over time, a split developed in Ukraine, with the West of the country wanting greater alignment with the West, and the East of the country being satisfied by greater alignment with Russia. Below was the electoral map showing the pro-EU and pro-Russian split during the 2010 presidential election, with Tymoshenko being the pro-EU, pro-NATO candidate, and Yanukovych being the pro-Russian candidate.

However, while Yanukovych won the presidential election, parliament had a pro-EU majority. They put forward legislation to cement closer ties to the EU and NATO, and Yanukovych rejected it (President has veto power). This began what became known as the Maidan uprising which turned into violent protests as both sides escalated. Yanukovych was particularly brutal in putting down the revolts, which only made them grow and intensify. The end result was that the duly elected President was forced to flee the country and the pro-EU side took over the country by force. I'm sorry if that disturbs you, but those were the facts.

Mind you, elections in Ukraine have always been rather suspect (both sides) as it was a CIA/SVR playground with made-up scandals and all manner of skullduggery. But the population was for sure very split with ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians, and Russian-speaking versus Ukranian-speaking divides. The pro-EU side did not help its cause by taking away certain guaranteed Russian-language rights that created big problems, especially in Crimea and the Donbas, the most heavily Russian areas.

Here is former US Congresswoman and Democrat Presidential candidate Tulsi Gabbard on Ukraine and the supposed current Democratic leader:

After the takeover, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko signed a constitutional amendment committing the country to becoming a member of NATO and the European Union, which was highly, highly provocative to Russia.

As a reaction to the pro-EU, pro-NATO side taking over by force, in 2014 Russia annexed the Crimea which contained its most strategic naval base, was the most heavily Russian part of Ukraine, was joined into Ukraine the latest, and in fact was leased by Russia from the Ukraine. There was no need for an invasion, just a declaration, as it was already Russian for all intents and purposes. Ukraine and the West essentially let that one go.

Russian-separatists also declared independence from Ukraine of the Donbas region, fearing anti-Russian sentiment in Ukraine. The separatists were backed by Russia, but Ukraine fought to keep the region, supported by Europe and the US. That situation has persisted to the present.

Ever since the Soviet Union fell apart, Russia has been very clear that any advances of NATO eastwards would be seen as a direct threat. There were many promises made to Russia that this would not happen, but NATO kept pushing East regardless.

While it is true that Latvia and Estonia border Russia and were NATO countries since 2004, a quick glance at the map shows that it's nothing like the same threat to Russia as would be Ukraine joining NATO. Of course, Russia protested vehemently their membership at the time, but Russia did not invade.

In 2008, the West tried the same trick in Georgia, but this time Russia went to war to successfully prevent that country from joining NATO. It was a very similar situation as in Ukraine.

My take on the matter is that it has been foolishly, foolishly provocative of the West to not make it off-limits Ukraine joining NATO (in fact, the West has been provocatively encouraging the opposite). Most high-level diplomats and analysts would agree with that sentiment.

Do I believe Russia is therefore justified in invading Ukraine? No. But at the same time the West backed them into a corner. Russia has repeatedly made clear, by words and deeds, the results of pushing for Ukraine's entry into NATO. If Russia ever senses it's about to happen, which they now, justly, have, the result was always inevitable and was completely predictable and predicted.

If you are a threatening looking person with a gun in your hand (NATO), and you step closer and closer to a giant known bully with a crazy look in their eyes (Russia), and who have a track record of punching people who step too close (Georgia, Crimea, Donbas), and the crazy man is telling you to stay back, not cross this line, and yet you keep stepping closer, with your gun drawn, until you are nose to nose, is that person justified in punching you? No. But why THE FUCK were you doing that in the first place???

There are a few potential outcomes. The worst is all out nuclear war or serious cyber warfare with the West. What Russia is likely aiming for is a partition of Ukraine into a neutral Russian puppet state (like Belarus), call it East Ukraine, east of the Dnieper encompassing Crimea and Donbas; and then a separate West Ukraine that would be free to join the EU and maybe NATO as well.

What's needed now is diplomacy and a face-saving outcome for all concerned. And ideally one that does not push Russia into China's arms.

95 comments:

  1. Thanks for this Julie , once again information not provided so concisely by the mainstream media.
    Certainly Ukraine didn't help the possibility of a peace deal from the recent talks by asking for membership in the EU as their starting position.
    Partition seems like the eventual solution but won't be the end of the unrest in Ukraine as history tells us from the partition of Ireland in 1921.

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    1. Utter failure of diplomacy brought us here. A lot of whipped up rabid anti-Russian sentiment by Dems and anti-Trump RINOs in attempt to slander Trump. In fact, US and Russia should have aligned against China, something made impossible by the Dems rhetoric. You would think they were keen on war.

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  2. Eh. Putin miscalculated. He thought the Ukrainian military would, by and large, be the same as the military he encountered when annexing Crimea. He thought he could march on Kyiv, apprehend Zelenskyy and install a puppet government subservient to his will. He thought he could do this with minor sanctions from the West and in a short enough time period that his reserves of foreign currency wouldn't be depleted.

    He was wrong. Not only the West have put sanctions on Russia, hell even China has limited trade with Russia and continues to recognise Ukraine as a sovereign state, but the West have taken the major step of kicking Russian banks out of SWIFT. Zelenskyy, if he survives, will become a Ukrainian hero and if he dies he dies a martyr. The Ukrainian military is leaps and bounds more advanced than it was when Russia annexed Crimea & has active combat experience over six drafts.

    This has become a lose/lose/lose situation for Putin. Rightly or wrongly he miscalculated badly and he now has no face saving exit options. Scary times.

    -Kasey

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    1. That is all definitely possible. But I'm also sensing a terrific amount of pro-Ukrainian propaganda flooding the MSM so hard to know the real situation. "It's wartime so it's ok to lie".

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    2. All the supposed Ukrainian 'gains'need to be placed in perspective, first as you mentioned Julie , mainstream reporting is selective or in accurate , secondly Putin is not going to send in his elite troops at the beginning when he knows he will meet the most resistance.
      He will send in 'expendables'like conscripts and the Chechens to wear the enemy down and then send in the elite battalions to finish them off when needed.
      Just like the English used to do when they were in a battle over centuries ago , 'send in the Irish first.
      Once the Irish conscripts took a beating and softened their opponents they sent in the cavalry.
      Standard military approach to conquering.



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    3. Yes indeed. Hard to know what's what for real.

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  3. The way I see the operation itself is that Russia is achieving its' strategic objectives, but the Ukrainians are bloodying their noses a bit more than anticipated. Putin is eventually going to get what he wants in Ukraine, he knows the West will not risk a general engagement leading to a full war. However, I do think he is going to come out of this weaker than he started. This was a political mistake, IMO.

    The two underreported broader problems I see:

    - Biden and his State Department have pushed India closer to the Russia-China sphere of influence by arrogantly scolding them over this ordeal. He's also spent his term alienating Saudi Arabia by cozying up to the Iranians so they're disinclined to assist the oil market during this conflict (a problem that wouldn't exist at all if not for Biden). This is my biggest criticism of Biden's own handling of this crisis. He failed to prevent the invasion via diplomacy/economic means, and he has created a situation where critical Asian/Middle Eastern allies could be persuaded to align more with China and Russia than the US.

    - Russia, China and their allies are attempting to create a parallel system to break Western economic hegemony and devalue the dollar. Trump's attempt to at least lower hostilities with Russia was actually quite farsighted. Creating any distance between Beijing and Moscow is in our interest, but the hysteria in Washington and in the press made that impossible.

    Trump greatly improved relations with India and Saudi Arabia, and a less openly hostile Russia would have put us in an excellent position to contain China. Biden and the foreign policy establishment have completely screwed the pooch. Sure, the Europeans are happy nobody is yelling at them anymore to actually pay what they agreed for their defense, but the people we'll actually need to keep China in check are in danger of being won over to the other side.

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    1. Great analysis. Spankos are the smartest!

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  4. Good analysis Julie.

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  5. As a Pole and a frequent visitor to Ukraine, I have a slightly different view. But I don't want to get into political discussions, and besides, my English is a bit too poor for that.
    But btw, if you were my wife, I would discuss this post with a definitely different method :D
    Ralf

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    1. Hi Ralf, I would very much appreciate your point of view. Given I can't receive it while across your knee, an email would be grand.

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    2. I will try here and apologize for the poor English.
      1. If we are talking about the beginnings of statehood, Kievan Rus (present-day Ukraine) is much older than the Russian Empire. So you cannot start with the fact that Ukraine was part of Russia.
      2. During the Soviet Union, Ukraine was one of the republics of the USSR, as were Estonia, Kazakhstan and dozens of others.
      3. The Euromaidan was a protest of democracy against the regime's order, not a seizure of power by force. As earlier in Poland, Romania and East Germany in 1989.
      4. No rights have been taken away from Russian-speaking people as most Ukrainians speak Russian. President Zelenskiy learned Ukrainian only recently. The linguistic division has little relation to the sense of national identity.
      5. Crimea (as opposed to eastern Ukraine) is largely inhabited by Russians. But that doesn't mean you can break international law and annex foreign territory.
      6. To regard the will to join NATO and the EU as "provocative" is to recognize the fact that Russia has the right to rule over a free state. Nobody gave such a right. Sorry, but the phrase "provocation" in this context is repeating Russian propaganda.
      7. Russian separatists were a handful that declared independence under the influence of Russia's actions, and were not „backed by Russia”, but Russia was the initiative here.
      8. Nobody made any promises from Russia. In the 1990s, NATO expanded to include Poland and the Baltic republics. Yeltsin ruled Russia and there was no problem.
      9. Pro-European tendencies in Ukraine are a "threat" to Russia because they show that society is capable of overthrowing harmful power. Putin is afraid of this same at home. This is his main fear.
      10. I do not understand how to justify the brutal agression against Georgia in 2008. Georgia is an independent state and had the right to decide about its future.
      11. Putin was pleaded with all during long time, and that was a mistake for which we are now paying. We have over 100,000 refugees from the war in Warsaw. About 700,000 in all of Poland, and there will be many more. War is a terrible thing, and the only culprit is Russia and its imperialism.
      I am not anti-Russian, I have many Russian friends (more than Ukrainians), but I find such an analysis harmful. I understand that from overseas it may be a bit different, but symmetry is dangerous nowadays. I hope this whole situation will not escalate further.

      I would prefer to explain you all this with a belt and a corner in the room :)

      Ralf

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    3. Hi Ralf - thank you, your points are well taken and a good opposing (though not opposite) point of view.

      1. Good point

      2. True, but it did hold a special status of one of the founding states, as a "bread basket" and as a technological / innovation Center for the USSR.

      3. I am not saying the protests were not justified, especially after the brutal reprisals. I am saying the net result was the removal by force of the (entirely corrupt) elected representative. But Zelenski as well, uses corrupt means to stay in power as Tulsi points out. I doubt it would work any other way in Ukraine.

      4. There were definitely fights over the status of Russian as a minority language and the imposition of Ukrainian universally. There's a giant Wikipedia page listing all the battles.

      5. Realpolitik. Crimea was passed to Ukraine from Russia very late in its history when dissolution was not considered a possibility. It is incredibly strategic to Russia. With a Ukraine becoming hostile to Russia, Russia had no choice but to take it back. They did so with no bloodshed.

      6. Realpolitik again. The US faced the same quandary in the Cuban missile crisis and resolved it through the use of force. EU maybe. NATO is provocative.

      7. Donbas was massively pro Russian, so it's a bit of a distinction without a difference.

      8. There were no treaties as the West would not enter into such treaties, however Gorbachev is on record as saying that was the strong understanding. Again, a distinction without a difference.

      9. More likely is he fears a massing of NATO troops, bases, and weapons on his most vulnerable border.

      10. I am not justifying it. I think it was horrible. It was also a complete failure of diplomacy. I can hold these two thoughts at the same time: Russia was wrong. The West was needlessly provocative.

      11. See 10 above.

      I would like the belt and the corner, and afterwards I would agree with everything you say, but my views will be modified (as you've done here) but basically unchanged: Russia is bad. The West is bad. Ukraine is corrupt.

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    4. It is true. In Poland, we have problems with the current government, but the level of corruption in Ukraine has been known for years and it is changing very slowly.
      Thank you for a balanced point of view and an exchange of views, without unnecessary emotions.
      Spanking and the corner (naked kneeling ;-)) will remain in the virtual sphere, we are separated by the ocean :)

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    5. Thank you for your excellent analysis, Ralf!
      It's so good to hear from someone who isn't just repeating mainstream propaganda!
      -Tomas

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    6. Thank you Ralf. As you say, rare and delightful to engage in discussion on controversial topics without rancour.

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  6. Long time reader here. First time poster.

    Just had to say I find it utterly bizarre that one of the best analysis on the Ukraine situation I've seen over the last few weeks is to be found in a spanko blog! The world truly is a crazy place.

    That being said. Thanks for the post, very much enjoyed (as i do the blog in general!)

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    1. The MSM has degenerated into CIA-sourced propaganda soundbytes, so the bar is not high.

      As well, I find any sort of historical perspective is often missed, but we know, in the real world, that if you know the full history of something controversial in your life, you have much more nuance and context. Like we all know my Mom and her sister-in-law do not get along, but my Dad knows the whole history of that.

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  7. It's amazing how the pro Trumpers are so happy to attack the US intelligence community if anyone dares to attack their darling

    Do us all a favour and actually read the Meuller report in full and you'll find very clear links between the Trump camp and Moscow. In addition multiple items by Russian to interfere.

    Trump chose to ignore all of this and said he trusted Putin when he said he didn't interfere

    Also don't accept every word that comes out of Trumps mouth as the truth

    This week he claimed Biden had given the Nordstream 2 pipeline the goahead when it this clearly had not happened

    It's still baffles me that people will ignore these clear lies

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    1. I read the Mueller report IN FULL. Of course there were links to Russia, as with ALL campaigns and presidencies. I have "links" to Russia for goodness sake (friends relatives). However, and here I quote from Mueller,

      "Second, while the investigation identified numerous links between individuals with ties to the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump Campaign, the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges. Among other things, the evidence was not sufficient to charge any Campaign official as an unregistered agent of the Russian government or other Russian principal. And our evidence about the June 9, 2016 meeting and WikiLeaks ' s releases of hacked materials was not sufficient to charge a criminal campaign-finance violation. Further, the evidence was not sufficient to charge that any member of the Trump Campaign conspired with representatives of the Russian government to interfere in the 2016 election."

      Are you now going to retreat to, "yeah, but they don't say it didn't happen!" If you did, I would say I have insufficient evidence to say you fucked your mother, but I'm still pretty sure it happened.

      Since you've read the Mueller report in detail, why don't you tell me the most damning Trump contact with Russia you believe is in there, and then explain why you disagree with Mueller on why it is in fact evidence of criminality (or even immorality or unpatriotic). And it better ruse to a level above Hunter taking millions from the wife of the mayor of Moscow!

      There is some evidence Russia interfered, but by sowing division. It's troll farms we're pretty insignificant, but they pushed out any divisive message, anti-Trump and anti-Hillary.

      As to Nordstream 2, Trump imposed the sanctions and Biden waived some of them: "The Biden administration has waived sanctions on a company building a controversial gas pipeline between Russia and Germany.
      The US also lifted sanctions on the executive - an ally of Russia's Vladimir Putin - who leads the firm behind the Nord Stream 2 project."
      https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57180674

      Get educated, troll.

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    2. You clearly drunk the Trump Kool Aid by the gallon

      Because when someone points out where Trump has clearly lied, you simply ignored them

      When Biden was clearly imposing sanction, Trump claimed the exact opposite

      https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2022/feb/23/biden-ukraine-russia-crisis-putin-trump-republicans-politics-latest-live

      You also ignored the point around the whole intelligence community saying there was clear interference, yet Trump in a meeting dismissed saying he took the word of Put

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    3. Of course Trump lies. He constantly exaggerates and puts hyperbole on everything. Your point?

      "14 intelligence agencies said so". No. One small team said so, and 14 intelligence agencies signed on. We know the exact extent of Russia's involvement in the election. It was a small troll farm that put out both anti-Clinton and anti-Trump messages.

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  8. Julie, you told us some time ago that David monitors your comments for rudeness and insults on your part.
    I hope you are taken in hand for insulting the above commenter, who, as far as I'm concerned, made perfectly reasonable comments.
    - Tomas

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  9. The depth of your knowledge, research skills and documented well-reasoned opinions never ceases to amaze me.

    прекрасная работа

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  10. I was shocked by the comment of Pat Robertson; "Putin was compelled by God to invade Ukraine to fulfill armageden prophecy.
    Robertson proves that there are those who follow Jesus and those that use the Bible to prove their point. Robertson uses the Bible for his personal views.
    God wants to Kill People? Jack

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    1. Those guys are crazy. Only redeeming feature is their penchant for wife spanking 😂

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  11. Might you please post this somewhere other than your spanking blog so that we might have access to it / share it without outing ourselves for being on your blog?

    Maybe submit it as an opinion piece to newspapers, CBC?

    Or is there another, pithy, article saying virtually the same thing?

    peter peter

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    1. Not as pithy, but even MSNBC opinion is on-board:
      https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/russia-s-ukraine-invasion-may-have-been-preventable-n1290831

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    2. And Glenn Greenwald is great on it as well:
      https://youtu.be/ZnHo6JXxcQM

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  12. Spot on. While its wrong of Russia to invade, Putin had no other choice. Besides he has been sitting on Ukraines border for the last 8 years and it would look silly if he continued to just sit there while Ukraine became more and more pro west.

    That said I just read that there is a lot of racism at Ukraines border. Apparently they are segregating people by race and allowing only Ukrainians to flee while discriminating against blacks, Indian students etc., leaving them stranded. So FUCK Ukraine.

    I also dont believe in selective empathy. Where was the worlds empathy when the US illegally invaded Iraq? Or when there was foreign intervention in Libya?

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    1. Hypocrisy runs high. Follow the money. And I would treat any sensationalist news reports, especially involving racism, with a grain of salt as the propaganda is flying hot and heavy.

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    2. The racism is quite real unfortunately. Didnt just watch news but a few personal friends of mine have relatives up there and they have said the same thing. Hoping and praying they all get out there and escape.

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    3. For sure their are very racist elements in Ukraine, but I would resist tarring the whole country as a result.

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  13. I suppose that Putin can excuse his hostility behind the threat of Ukraine joining NATO. That argument is specious. What is the threat NATO presents to Russia? Just one. If Russia invades a NATO country, the other members will help defend it. So, if Putin doesn't invade Ukraine, there is no problem with NATO. If Putin wants to annex Ukraine, membership in NATO is a big issue. Simple.

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    1. That's a very "West are the good guys" narrative. Russians don't see an ever-encroaching NATO the same way. They see it as an invasion threat. Russia was invaded twice in the 20th century through Ukraine, with massive disruption and loss of life both times. That's a view held by Russians across the spectrum, from the most hard line to the most liberal. Western analysts have known that Ukraine was a hard red line forever. Russia said exactly what would happen if Ukraine was getting close to NATO membership. It was war mongering for the US to rule out banning Ukraine from NATO. For diplomacy to work, you have to see things through the other guy's eyes as well.
      See Glenn Greenwald's analysis, it's very good: https://youtu.be/ZnHo6JXxcQM

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    2. From Russsia's perspective NATO is not a defensive alliance, and to be frank, they haven't been. See Kosovo, see Libya, see Afghanistan...

      -Kasey

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    3. Julie is right. However, Putin also considers Ukraine to really be Russia. He wrote a book or an essay about it a while ago.

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    4. Yes, Russia/Ukraine/Belarus were the heart of Russia and the USSR.

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    5. We should remember also that Kyiv existed pre-Soviet Union, indeed Ukraine and Kyiv were a vibrant city of people before Moscow existed. Putin claiming that Ukraine = Russia because of the USSR years conveniently forgets all the thousands of years of history in Kyiv and the Kyiv region.

      It's about as true as the United Kingdom trying to reclaim India as their sovereign territory because of the colonial years, ignoring the thousands of years of history before those years.

      -Kasey

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    6. "Ukraine was the heart of Russia and the USSR"?
      JFC, Julie.
      Russia starved 4 million Ukrainians to death.
      https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

      Why are you supporting this monster?

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    7. I'm not supporting Stalin.

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    8. The fact that you need to state that is actually fucking insane, Julie. Like holy fucking shit lmao.

      -Kasey

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    9. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, he seems to have segued from Stalin to Putin in the same breath. I could equally have said "I'm not supporting Putin", but it was funnier that way 😊

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  14. A very good summary of the history of the region from the point of view of Russian imperialists. Very much like a history of the British Isles from the point of view of a 19th century British imperialist.

    But a history of the region from the point of view of Ukraine, or Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia or Finland is far different.

    No one knows what the outcome will be, but I believe that a compromise that allows Putin to save face is not an option. Will he be ousted? Will he start a nuclear war? Will there be a decade long occupation with a resistance movement ala WWII? Who knows?

    As to whether Russia turns eastward to China, it does not really bother me. Under the autocracy, Russia will always be a third world country. Let them be China's gas station.

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    1. If Ukraine and Russia wish to fight it out, that's one thing. A ridiculous thing with tremendous human suffering, of course, and I despise it, but that's one thing.

      However, for the West and the US in particular to actively and aggressively promote a war they don't fight in themselves, but profit from with arms sales, is heinous to the extreme. They did zero to try to stop it, and everything to provoke it.

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    2. The desire of the Ukranians and so much of eastern Europe to be free of Russian imperialism is hundreds of years old.

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    3. Yes, and proclaiming a Swiss-like neutrality may well have been a way to get there. Inexorably moving towards NATO was guaranteed to result in the current outcome.

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    4. Not even Finland thinks that now. Or Switzerland. Putin's Imperial Russia took one bite out of Ukraine in Crimea and tried to take additional bites in the East. To think that he would stop there is naive

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    5. Crimea was a necessity for Russia. I believe had the West negotiated in good faith regarding Russia's security concerns re. Ukraine (rather than "taking off the table", at the very start, barring Ukraine from NATO) Russia would not have invaded. But that is an opinion, as is yours. But the fact was that it was not tried, leading inevitably to invasion.

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    6. NATO has been at the Russian border since 2004. The only reason that Putin Ukraine objects to Ukraine joining NATO is that it would end his dream of annexation.

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    7. There's a huge procession of Russia experts, diplomats, CIA leaders, who were saying the importance of a neutral Ukraine to Russia's security (at least, until a minute ago). So your opinion is not in good company.

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    8. Disappointing that your only answer is that lots of people agree with you. Well, lots of people disagree as well.

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    9. Neither of us can get into Putin's head, yet you claim you can. There's a simpler explanation, the one all experts agreed upon and that Russia for many years told the West. Ukraine in NATO was a hard red line. Had the west agreed to that, and acted accordingly, and the Russia invaded regardless, I'd be 100% with you. The diplomatic option was not tried, and as a result of this utter diplomatic failure, and Russia's aggression, millions are in misery.

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    10. Ukraine should have just joined the non aligned countries and focused on bilateral relations instead of EU, NATO and other multilateral treaties - which are always bullshit.

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    11. I don't think 'Ukraine" exists. It's either a puppet of Russia, or a puppet of the US, with oligarchs running rampant. Now, the US virtually control Ukraine domestic policy. Heck, Biden bragged about forcing them to remove their Attourney General.

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    12. You "don't think Ukraine exists"?
      it's existed far longer than Russia.

      "In the 11th century, Kievan Rus' was geographically the largest state in Europe, becoming known in the rest of Europe as Ruthenia (the Latin name for Rus'), especially for western principalities of Rus' after the Mongol invasion. The name "Ukraine", meaning "in-land" or "native-land",[28] usually interpreted as "border-land", first appears in historical documents of the 12th century[29] and then on history maps of the 16th century period.[30]

      This term seems to have been synonymous with the land of Rus' propria—the principalities of Kyiv, Chernihiv and Pereiaslav. The term "Greater Rus'" was used to apply to all the lands of the entire Kievan Rus, including those that were not just Slavic, but also Uralic in the north-east portions of the state. Local regional subdivisions of Rus' appeared in the Slavic heartland, including "Belarus" (White Russia), "Chorna Rus'" (Black Russia) and "Cherven' Rus'" (Red Russia) in northwestern and western Ukraine."




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    13. "I don't think Ukraine exists ANY MORE". It's a corrupt puppet state, whichever way it swings.

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  15. WE know that Putin has expansionist dreams because he has said so and act in furtherance of that dream. He regrets the dissolution of the Soviet Union and has expanded in Cheynia (I can't spell), Georgia and Crimea.

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    1. That is also true. But what precipitated this invasion is quite clear.

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    2. Yep, Putin's insanity precipitated this invasion.

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    3. Correct, egged on by foolish Western policies designed to provoke the madman.

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  16. It is a ridiculous position to hold that Russia should dictate who should belong to NATO.

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    1. Where did Julie say that Russia should dictate who should belong to NATO? The point of the post is that the West has been slowly moving east and posing an existential threat to Russia or atleast perceived as such by them. Which is true as a lot fo these eastern EU countries have US military bases which are within striking distance from Moscow. I mean did the US not freak out when USSR wanted to have nuclear missiles in Cuba?

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    2. Exactly. It's Realpolitik. It's a child's view that "I should do whatever I want 'cause it's not fair otherwise!" The result: millions in misery, yes, because of Russia, but the West shares blame for antagonizing. Where are the wise diplomats who saw us through the Cold War? Replaced by money-grubbing idiot politicians.

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    3. Let's recap

      Despite the fact that Russia agreed in 1994 to respect the existing borders of Ukraine, their takeover of Crimea was justified because it was a 'necessity'.
      NATO should accept Russia's red line that Ukraine should not be part of NATO.
      Russia was not interested in keeping Ukraine out of NATO because, as a NATO country, it could not as easily continue its policy of systematic partitioning of Ukraine. It was because it shared a border with Ukraine. This position somehow makes sense despite the fact that 3 NATO countries already share a border with Russia.
      Ukraine should have continued negotiating with the aggressor. This apparently means accepting the further partioning of Ukraine which was the goal of Russia to begin with.

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    4. "The West has been moving east... and poses an existential threat to Russia".
      Lol, Russia is the biggest country in the world. It is 5600 miles wide.
      If Russia wasn't a failed kleptocracy that threatens and attacks its neighbors, it wouldn't have anything to worry about.

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    5. I encourage you to look at the map, and to consider which of Russia's western borders exposes Russia the most (and which one was used to invade Russia twice in the 20th century).

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    6. All that Russia is exposed to is civilization, a free press, and democracy.
      France was invaded twice in the 20th century and hasn’t found it necessary to invade, bomb, and cyberattack its neighbors.
      Why do you defend this madman?

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  17. The Baltic States are far closer to the population centers of St. Petersburgh and Moscow than Ukraine.

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    1. How many Russians who experienced the last German invasion are still alive?
      Putin wasn’t.
      Maybe you should admit that Putin is a tyrant, attempting to conquer more territory, and doesn’t care how many people he kills to do it.
      Another Stalin, and you’re defending him.

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    2. Your reading comprehension is poor. Nowhere am I defending Russia's invasion of Ukraine. I am saying it could have been avoided.

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  18. Kozyren, a former Foreign Minister of Russia, describes Putin as believing that Ukraine is a region, not a legitimate country as his way of explaining Putin forays into Ukraine.

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    1. I'm sure that's right. He thinks of it like Belarus that way.

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  19. Breaking news: "Dmitry Peskov said Moscow was demanding that Ukraine cease military action, change its constitution to enshrine neutrality, acknowledge Crimea as Russian territory, and recognize the separatist republics of Donetsk and Lugansk as independent states."
    https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/russia-will-stop-in-a-moment-if-ukraine-meets-terms-kremlin

    The West needs to take this deal to save lives, NOW!

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    1. The West doesn’t make that decision; it’ll be up to the people of the sovereign State of Ukraine, who are courageously fighting for their freedom and independence from a tyrannical monster.

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    2. You sound like a brainless propagandist.

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    3. Ad Hominem

      (Attacking the person): This fallacy occurs when, instead of addressing someone's argument or position, you irrelevantly attack the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument.

      https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Ad-Hominem.html

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    4. I like how you went for a personal attack when they pointed out how Ukraine is a sovereign nation. Which part about their statement offended you? You’ve lost your touch…

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    5. It's a "child's view" of international relations that is stunningly dangerous. Unfortunately, many "leaders" are equally afflicted. My point was that the comment was so naive and one-sided that it was making noises similar to a brainless propagandists. May even be one. The trolls are out in force now.

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  20. I wonder what would happen in Russia and Mexico became allies and Russia placed its weapons on the American border. How long to do think this rhetoric about soverign states deciding for themselves would last? We have been here b4 actually, in 1962, with the Cuban Missile Ciris when Kennedy told Kruschev to remove Soviet weapons or he would, in a full scale invasion of Cuba and it that precipitated WW3 so be it. Kruschev backed down.

    The Americans spent 6 billion dollars undemining the elected government in Ukraine which led to the 2014 coup. They even chose the members of the new right wing, part neo-Nazi, government that then came to power, whose first decision was to end the status of the Russian language as one of the two official languages of Ukraine. Its second decision was to threaten to kick the Russian Navy out of Sebastopol in Crimea where it had been based for 250 years. Now Crimea was always Russian until, I believe, Kruschev gave it to Ukraine as a gift in 1956, preciptating Putin's action.

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    1. Absolutely correct. I think people have seen too many movies where the US is always the "good guy" and anything they do is justified (such as all the wars in South America to prevent communist takeovers to guard against the scenario you describe).

      And don't forget writing into the Ukrainian constitution that they must strive for NATO membership.

      Nobody is excusing Russian's actions, but nor are we excusing the provocative war mongering from the US (whose corporations are now profiting immensely from arms sales at taxpayer expense at the worst possible time).

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    2. I am not aware of any serious talk in America in 150 years of America taking over China.

      Russia's behavior toward Ukraine ought to explain to all but the most naive why Ukraine would want to be part of NATO.

      BTW, NATO is not America. It is western Europe and America. Ukraine wants to be part of western Europe.

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    3. China???

      What is naive is to not understand that there can be >1 "bad guy" in a situation. The US funds more of NATO than any other country (even though it has the least regional interest. Hmmmm).

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  21. Totally agree.

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  22. Sorry, I meant Mexico not China.

    It is really quite simple. Ukraine is a medium sized country bordering a much larger country that covets its territory. Ukraine wants allies so that it can resist.

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    1. It's not simple at all. Your "simple thinking" is going to result in massive misery that could have been avoided.

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  23. Very USA-centric views!

    The historical map of Russia almost feels like a joke - we could take an even older map to demonstrate the exact opposite view. By the same logic, is USA should still be property of Great Britain?

    Furthermore, NATO has not "kept pushing East", but the emerged democratic European countries have made the decision to join NATO. It is not in the power of the Russian government to override these decisions.

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    1. What I don't care for is this sort of binary thinking that holds that "it's not fair!" that Ukraine can't do whatever it wants ("it" here being unclear, as it's a puppet government of the US), and the result of this is massive human suffering that could have been avoided with some diplomacy and compromise.

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  24. Noticing a long tail of I think the same guy (but anonymous, of course) commenting over and over again but not making any new points. So I'll shut down the comments now, especially as I just received Sandy's write-up of her bum fucking experience AND I got a spanking from David for overspending.

    Apologies if you are new to this and wish to comment. Please send me an email if you wish to continue the discussion 1-1.

    Thanks everyone, for your views!

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